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I agree and disagree with Wyn. I don't know if we should be discussing in great detail what this thread should and shouldn't do, even though I did start it. But I also don't want it to turn into what we should focus on with regards to reviewing.

So I'll try to be as brief as possible so we can get to actual reviews again (not just criticism, although I feel like mods get plenty of praise.)

• If you weren't tagging and categorizing in the first place, then you wouldn't have been asked to be a Media Moderator. The main thing that can be questioned is the amount of work done, and that's not something most users are going to be able to see anyway.
• You can be critical of entry work, but I wouldn't suggest a whole other thread for it. I think this thread was brought about with the hope that people that had something to say already knew what they were going to say and why.
  • Related to that and RM's points, people who are DB do work in so many areas of the site that even other moderators couldn't give a proper critique of RM does. If Forum mods can't give a critique of Entry mods or Media mods, then I don't think other users should be expected to. I say critique what you know. If that's simply how you handle users from a position of power, then so be it.
• I also agree that Forum Moderators should be assessed heavily on matters other than just deleting spam threads.

I'll tell you what I do that I cannot do as a user without Sr. Forum powers:

1. I spam ban spammers.

That's all.

Everything else is simply directing traffic and is usually at the request of users.

"Stay on topic, please."
"Ease up on the tone."

Sometimes, I post in threads I don't have much interest in just to keep things from being one-sided or to keep a user from feeling like they're being shamed, but I don't need powers for that. Most users post threads where they should be. We rarely have to edit posts.

So personally, I'd want a critique of me to be based not necessarily on my personality but I do want it to be based heavily on how I deal with users when I'm implying "moderatorship." And there's no real way around it: it's very difficult for users to see a mod as just being another user unless you know that moderator outside of that context. I feel like that's part of any "burden" we have though.

Unraveler :

No idea why you're a mod. There's nothing you've done that couldn't just be done with scrapbooker powers lately. Your last mod edit was 9 months ago, and it was just undoing an edit another mod made to your image. You don't do anything that would require mod powers really.

ri :

>no image edits at all

>3 video edits

wtf.

KZN02 :

No idea why you're a mod either. You have one image edit that requires mod from two months ago, and the next one is from a year ago, and I don't see why the image from two months ago would really need to be moved.

hmmmm. what is happening?!

Well, I suppose some praise is in order since the thread was bumped.
(Alrdin, awenna machie, I remind you to stay on topic in the discussion boards).

Honestly speaking, the newer batches of media mods seem to be a huge step in the right direction. These three losers in particular have made huge strides in using their powers for editing and properly sorting content, rather than just uploading more. KYM obviously wouldn't be what it is without people like Unraveler uploading over 50 thousand images but in all honesty, the kind of mod that manages the content already there is much more useful. They've been a huge help to me and other users, and we've finally taken a firmer stance against the endless tide of poorly-handled NSFW uploads and actually show up in IRC when you need them. Don-willing, these people could turn the galleries into something Jacob wouldn't scream at.

TL;DR more mods like this pls. We've finally found people who use their powers for good, I don't want to settle for mods that barely use their powers at all. I'll admit to being a little biased because of ShiJo though

Did the math and they all have done pretty good. Most of the time when I try to fix something one of these guys get it between when I find it and when I actually get to the part where you change the entry. Combine this with the fact I can't get on very often, these guys are making me seem like I don't do anything but I still have about twice as much media activity as those three combined so there

I would seriously consider questioning current actions and attitude of the mod Arcanine. Things like this make me feel that he isn't really acting like a mod.

Yes, I know he bans spam accounts a lot, but the way he is behaving now is not acceptable.

Happy 100 days of modship to Asdfghjkl! As a gift, I'll tell you all the things you're doing wrong! <3

But first, what you're doing right:

Tagging: Good, not much to be concerned about from what I checked.

Activity: Good-to-excellent. In the past week, you've averaged several metadata and entry edits a day.

Entry choice: Nothing to be concerned about here.

Now, there are two areas where I have constructive criticism. The first is in userbase interactions. While you are absolutely fine with the level you have, the lack of wanting to get into any kind of serious discussion with anyone, while understandable, I think isn't the best way to go. You seem to be pretty absent whenever something serious comes up, and I think you'd benefit as a mod, and help the community at large a bit, by just throwing your two cents in on various issues every now and then.

The second area of constructive criticism is how you treat borderline cases. You said you tend to ignore them, presumably because A) they're annoying to work out, and B) you disagree with a few of the more dubious rules. I am a bit more critical of B, as the goal of a moderator is to enforce the site rules. Now, let me be clear, the cases where you seem to not want to do anything are pretty rare, and you never try to get in the way of us enforcing those rules. I just think that as a moderator, you should be attempting to enforce all the rules, not just those you think are the best.

Overall, I have to say, you're a good media mod. You're active, you enforce the majority of the rules well, and you're helpful. As I said months ago, before you got modded, you deserve your modship, and you earned it. If I had to give a x/10 rating, I'd say 8.5/10.

(Also, sr. entry mod when?)

Now, there are two areas where I have constructive criticism. The first is in userbase interactions. While you are absolutely fine with the level you have, the lack of wanting to get into any kind of serious discussion with anyone, while understandable, I think isn’t the best way to go. You seem to be pretty absent whenever something serious comes up, and I think you’d benefit as a mod, and help the community at large a bit, by just throwing your two cents in on various issues every now and then.

I read all the council threads, maintenance threads, and read everything in modchat that my log picks up. The problem is I have no opinion on most of the things, so I'll just use this video now:

You said you tend to ignore them, presumably because A) they’re annoying to work out, and B) you disagree with a few of the more dubious rules. I am a bit more critical of B, as the goal of a moderator is to enforce the site rules. Now, let me be clear, the cases where you seem to not want to do anything are pretty rare, and you never try to get in the way of us enforcing those rules. I just think that as a moderator, you should be attempting to enforce all the rules, not just those you think are the best.

i feel bad for the lewdposters

Is someone going to address this?

My apologies. The karma on his post implies this is indeed a rising concern. If anyone got additional examples, throw 'em up.

Will bring it up in the mod forum, so outside of your view Taryn ;^)

I don't see anything wrong here. It's a self-absorbed moderator talking about his stuff a lot. How is that different from most of everyone on this site?

@Bob
Isn't that the point though? We hold users to that standards, not mods. A mod that can't take jokes and cannot act like an adult is a problem. He is constantly begging for attention and cannot make up his mind, that should at the very least spark a concern.

Since when were users held to that standard? Have you even seen Riff Raff?

Edit: I'm not entirely sure what's more concerning. The fact that you apparently have no idea what this site is. Or the fact that other people seem to agree with you.

What's concerning is that you missed the point completely, i'm saying mods should not be held to user standards, as there's a reason they are mods, not even mods act that dumb in rif raff.

I never got this whole idea you people had with mods needing to be somehow "better" than users. I mean, do you people really despise yourselves that much that you would put someone else on a pedestal to reign over you?

Well, not only is that a toxic mindset, it's also a wrong one. Mods are users with powers, get used to it.

A moderator arguing against moderators being held to a higher standard? Who could have predicted this?

Maybe the higher standard that they mean is not "better" but "more responsible". Moderators do, in a way reign over users. Simply because they are, as you said yourself "users with powers" "powers" being the specific word here. Although we don't have to pre-approve every forum post and comment before it goes up, if we do not approve of comments of users there are consequences. Sometimes these consequences cost a user the chance to use all the functions of the site. Maybe a set of behavioral standards for moderators isn't a half bad idea.

I'm actually surprised you want to tell mods what they can and can't do.

Either way, we have a team because we aren't any more responsible. It's a system of checks and balances. We're not really that much better than they are.

What checks and balances do users have against mods if dissent is met with "get used to it"?

My secret goal is to dissolve the position of moderator entirely.

If we really aren't better than regular users (which I believe) what gives moderators the right to enforce the rules over other users?

But the thing is, we did set qualifications of becoming a mod. One of them is the behavior of the user. Some of the users were flat out rejected by the mod team because "their behavior was not mod material". We even have a blacklist for that. So why would some peeps be rejected when user who clearly isn't most responsible has the privilege of being a mod?

The thing about Riff Raff is that allows people to be more wild. It would be incredibly dumb if I complained Arcanine because of one Riff Raff thread. Unfortunately, the moment happened outside of Riff Raff. Even if it's IRC, there is no justification why should a mod with standards go ballistic over minimalistic things such as downvote, hence why I posted.

The mod doesn't necessarily have to be better than entire userbase, but some standards need to be set.

@Taryn

Dissent isn't met with "get used to it" though. I'd love to see where you get your examples from.

@Blubber

The same thing that gives users rights to hold mods accountable for following the rules?

@Tupolev

No, it's not. Did you really think I was a nicer person before becoming a mod? It was never their behavior that disqualified them. It was usually the way they carried themselves. There's a difference between being an asshole and being retarded. One is acceptable, the other is not. As for why they were "blacklisted"? Believe it or not, they've actually done things that are far worse than hurting your precious feelings.

As for the second point? The IRC is its own entity completely separate from the KYM website. Whatever happens over there has no bearing on what happens on this site, otherwise I'm fairly sure you wouldn't have a clean slate.

And some standards are set. The same standards that are set for users.

>same standards are set for users

Well, no, actually. Mods are required to be responsible, considering the power that they possess.

Anyone can become an user. Pachirisu, Epyc Wyn, Calculator Fetishist… do you see any of them meeting the mod behaviour criteria? You can say, "sure, but they are/are going to be banned", but there are a lot of users who wouldn't make good mods or don't satisfy the expected qualities for a moderator.

Being an asshole is different from being irresponsible and unable to accept criticism. Someones behavior should reflect how the are able to handle modship, especially a modship that includes being able to ban, suspend, and straight-up blocking people from even seeing the site. While yes the irc is a different place, it still shows how this person acts and should not be discarded just because you yourself don't like the irc. If we allow unstable and irresponsible people to be mods, then there is really no reason to trust the sites security. He is clearly all these things stated and yet you don't think thats a problem. Thats like modding epyc because, well we shouldn't hold mods to higher stadards and he does make nice entries. Or like modding gaben because he does provide sufficient tags. You can see why this logic doesn't work.

Moderators are held to same standards as regular users. It's just that due to the nature of their positions, they are scrutinised more harshly for perceived faults, regardless of circumstance. As Triangle Mare said, there are many users here who may not adhere to user standards, and are therefore not mod material. If a moderator were acting no differently from them, why should they be a mod at all?

I think the higher standards is that, whatever we regular users do, we trust the mods to be examples of how we should be behaving. And if they're not, it reflects badly on the community. Presenting an image of reason and responsibility is something anyone in a position of power should do, they are in charge for a reason. At least, this how I feel, any of you may feel differently, of course, I just felt I should contribute.

@Triangle Mare

Well, no, actually. There is no mod behavior criteria. You can say "sure, they're not mods" but there are other reasons they aren't mods. It's not because they don't meet some imagined requirements to become a mod, it's because they can't even reach the requirements to be respectable users.

@NON

Same argument as above, actually. Mods who are trusted with the banhammer are basically just users who have been shown to be regular users and not complete and total idiots. That's why the system of checks and balances exist, because they're not always responsible and can't be responsible all the time. Epyc isn't modded because the guy has the mental stability of a seven-year old. Gaben isn't a mod for other reasons that I won't share because mod business. You can see why you lack logic entirely.

Edit: You see this "The Black Knight" user? I like him already. He's managed to fully understand why this discussion is stupid and you're all idiots in one fell swoop.

But he is being an idiot by acting the way he is, thats what we're saying. We're saying "why do we trust this guy as a mod if he will behave and act like an idiot" we're not saying mods should have better standards, we're saying that the way this guy acts is not good and not even how a regular user or mod should act and should not be trusted as a mod with a banhammer. And why don't mods have higher standards? Wouldn't it be better to not even use that check and balance system if every mod behaved and didn't even mess up?

To refute your points:

1) We trust him as a mod for the same reason we trust you not to get yourself banned.

2) Mods don't have higher standards because this is not a serious site in any way. In fact, most deficiencies in behavior come in the forums, where the focus of the site ignores completely. So basically, mods don't have higher standards because you people (and us by extension) aren't really important at all.

3) No. Checks and balances good. How could you even define a good mod? Some people would argue that I'm a good mod. That's why we need a team, because there is no absolute and searching for one is like looking for decency in the entry comments.

Dissent isn’t met with “get used to it” though. I’d love to see where you get your examples from.

Do you proofread anything you write?

Well, no, actually. There is no mod behavior criteria.

There should be, in order to prevent people like you and Arcanine from becoming mods.

To refute your points:
1) What does that even mean? You trust him because you know he won't do anything drastic? Well thats pretty dumb because he did do drastic things, he accidentally ip banned another user once and still acted like an idiot in the irc and somewhat in the forums. You wanted to ban epyc for these exact reasons minus the ip ban so do you really trust him?
2) Just because the site isn't serious doesn't excuse no standards for mods, its just excuses low standards, we're not asking for a strict code, we're just asking for mods who aren't whiners.
3) A good mod someone who doesn't mess up often, plain and simple. And if he does mess up, he wisens up and fixes his/her attitude/behavior thats making them mess up. Its good to have a team, but its also good to have mods that get it right most of the time. Its easy to search for that : is this mod messing up a lot, does he have a good behavior and responsibility? If not, then un-mod him/her, thats what this thread is for, are you suggesting that this entire thread is pointless and we shouldn't even bother expressing our feelings about other mods because its impossible to get good mods?

Bob… really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent

Are you desperate enough to argue semantics and then falsely accuse the dissenter of misinterpreting a word?

Get a grip on reality.

"because there is no absolute and searching for one is like looking for decency in the entry comments."
Thats exactly what you expressed, what the hell are you getting at? What standards did I not follow? You specifically said that its near impossible to find one, unless your opinion on this site is suddenly higher then what it usually is.
Sorry I didn't know you didn't want to ban him, but when you barley express your opinion on it and when its stated that the majority of the mods wanted him banned, its easy to assume.
Being egotistical is a problem though when given power, it can lead to the assumption that you can do no wrong and your decisions are good no matter the feedback, which is simply a flawed system. We need mods that can admit to mistakes and then fix them, not think that they're so great that they are excused from anything and everything.
Also your 2nd point is just ignoring the problem, sorry you can't find a user you personally like.
All I'm getting at is that something should be done about his behavior and that your logic does not work. Moderators should have higher standards and its not as hard as you think to find good mods and even users, but you're so stuck up in this mentality of "everyone doesn't conform to my opinion that makes them stupid hahahaha" that you treat everyone like an asshole and it actually hurts users, Tupolev deactivated because your attitude towards him, maybe they should get thicker skin, but you also need to stop being an asshole and treat people with respect.
Please at least try to talk to him and get him to apologize for his behavior or something because mods acting like egotistical assholes/whiners is inexcusable, including you.

I've been reading the posts on this thread about me and I would like to say that I am sorry for what I did.

I do acknowledge that the things I did on KYM and in the IRC were extremely shitty of me and I shouldn't have done what I did. I apologize for not acting what is expected of a mod on the IRC and I promise not to do it again.

~ me

Since when were users held to that standard? Have you even seen Riff Raff?

Isn't that the whole point of riff raff though? To dick around? If anything we should be looking at how people act on other parts of the forum…

Anyways, if anything, mods should be held to higher standards than the average user. Sure, messing around in Riff Raff is fine but Arcanine was pretty obviously going around and begging for attention all the time. I wouldn't want my mods doing that, that's not mature at all.

I never got this whole idea you people had with mods needing to be somehow “better” than users. I mean, do you people really despise yourselves that much that you would put someone else on a pedestal to reign over you?

Here's how I see it. When you have mods like Arcanine acting kind of attention-whorish you want to address that behaviour. Sure they might be a fine user but that's not what you want for someone with elevated user privileges. I shouldn't be like, "lolwut the staff here is less mature than I am", you guys are supposed to be more mature than me.

It's like, would you want to see a politician doing that? What about the CEO of a company? How about this situation – you go to a resturaunt and you see that the staff are shit talking the customers – would you want to eat there? It just doesn't look good on the staff.

Also, Bob, chill the hell out. The only person who looks like a crybaby in this thread right now is you. You're the one going around and flinging insults at everyone. Again, "lolwut why is the staff here less mature than I am?". A mod shouldn't be an attention whore but should definitely not be this arrogant.

@ Arcanine – Thanks for the apology to everyone… think it's getting caught up in all the drama here

"These crybabies are obviously holding you to a standard they themselves don’t believe they should follow. It isn’t fair to you that you have to be better than them."

Isn't that a violation of the be nice rule?

This is what people have been saying this whole thread. They expect someone who holds the power enforce certain the rules to follow them to their fullest extent. And to act with a modicum of distinguishment.

Isn’t that the whole point of riff raff though? To dick around? If anything we should be looking at how people act on other parts of the forum…

Anyways, if anything, mods should be held to higher standards than the average user. Sure, messing around in Riff Raff is fine but Arcanine was pretty obviously going around and begging for attention all the time. I wouldn’t want my mods doing that, that’s not mature at all.

Do keep in mind that his attention whoring was done in the IRC, which has no basis in KYM conduct. People get away with shit that would normally ban them in the IRC.

Here’s how I see it. When you have mods like Arcanine acting kind of attention-whorish you want to address that behaviour. Sure they might be a fine user but that’s not what you want for someone with elevated user privileges. I shouldn’t be like, “lolwut the staff here is less mature than I am”, you guys are supposed to be more mature than me.

So long as his behavior does not impede on his duties as a moderator, I don't see why any of that matters. Or do you think people should be held accountable for things that have no relevance at all? Because your birds are annoying and I'd really not suspend you for that.

It’s like, would you want to see a politician doing that? What about the CEO of a company? How about this situation – you go to a resturaunt and you see that the staff are shit talking the customers – would you want to eat there? It just doesn’t look good on the staff.

But we're not about image in any way. Everything you have labeled is an example where image is the most important thing. That's completely different from what we are. Therefore, bad analogy.

Also, I'd love to eat at that restaurant as long as they didn't ruin my food. Might be fun.

Also, Bob, chill the hell out. The only person who looks like a crybaby in this thread right now is you. You’re the one going around and flinging insults at everyone. Again, “lolwut why is the staff here less mature than I am?”

Pray tell. How is being rude akin to being a spoiled, immature child? How does insulting people because they are unable to grasp basic concepts such as 'equal standards' make me 'unchill'?

And why is it that you assume you're far more mature when you're holding people up to standards that you wouldn't meet yourself? That sounds far more childish to me.

Ok heres a good reason t have mods to higher standards: so they won't cause a users deactivation, so they don't accidentally permaban, so they don't let emotions take them over and start drama or start deleting things, so they don't be assholes in general, so we can have a just site.
But no, thats what weaklings want apparently, we shouldn't take ourselves seriously because "lol we're only a shitty meme site, lol why am i even a mod if i hate this site?"
I'm sorry if I am getting pissy with this but you are just slinging insults left and right to make yourself seem superior, if anything Arcanine has become a better mod then you because at-least he knew to apologize, you don't. Mods should have standard so we don't have people like you being generally rude, I don't need your personal respect, I need the basic human right of being treated like a person and given good and rational arguments from a rational person, I'm not getting that.
But thats not the point of this conversation.
He has apologized and this is over, please try to follow you own rules and be nice from now on, its causing drama.

Yeah, no, this is where I'm drawing the line. Just because you think the rule is a "crock of shit" doesn't mean it doesn't still stand. As far as it stands currently, the rule IS still in place, if you want it gone we can discuss that elsewhere, but at the time of these posts that rule is still active and relevant and you are definitely breaking it.

Bob, I think you're a great guy and all, but I'll be frank, you really are the only one flinging insults around and acting childish here. Arcanine apologised, that should be the end of this. Stop pointlessly dragging this out any longer for than it needed to be.

HolyCrapItsBob wrote:

I’ve never been a fan of the “Be Nice” rule. It’s a crock of shit and should really be removed. This is news to no one.

There is nothing wrong with the Be Nice rule. It's perfectly fair to ask that users are respectful to one another.
s m h fam

That's not the way things work Bob, that's never the way things have worked.

Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean you can't follow it. There are some rules im not a big fan of. But that doesn't mean i go around violating them. And as people have said before, it reflects worse on you cause you're a mod

Do keep in mind that his attention whoring was done in the IRC, which has no basis in KYM conduct. People get away with shit that would normally ban them in the IRC.

I dunno, he did make a thread about it. Also, IRC isn't exactly private – anyone can log in and read that. Again, not a good reflection on moderators, and the fact that Tupo brought it up means that it was public enough to be a problem. You're basically arguing that it was "private enough" but that's clearly not the case since Tupo and other members knew about it.

So long as his behavior does not impede on his duties as a moderator, I don’t see why any of that matters. Or do you think people should be held accountable for things that have no relevance at all? Because your birds are annoying and I’d really not suspend you for that.

But the problem is that my birds aren't doing anything offensive nor do they have any malicious intent. You really can't prove that my threads serve any self serving purpose. However, there's obvious proof to show that Arcanine's thread held a self serving purpose.

Also, why would that matter? I'm just some normal ordinary user. Who cares if I act like an idiot? It's not like passerby who see KYM judges it on a whole based on me, a mere mook on the real scope of things. Mods and Admins on the other hand…

Of course it's your discretion whether or not that's a valid complaint but you wanna know how you could have left it? Just say, "we'll investigate the matter" and then not look into it. But no, you had to make the staff look even worse.

Pray tell. How is being rude akin to being a spoiled, immature child? How does insulting people because they are unable to grasp basic concepts such as ‘equal standards’ make me ‘unchill’?

Because nobody will want to spend time with them. Of course, with a child, that's not really that bad, but in KYM's case, you're driving people away from the website. Last time I checked, that's the last thing that mods and admins are supposed to do.

And why is it that you assume you’re far more mature when you’re holding people up to standards that you wouldn’t meet yourself? That sounds far more childish to me.

Actually, yes, it's completely fair for me to make that judgement. All I'm saying is "you guys are acting very immature in comparison to how I perceive myself". What's wrong or childish about that? It doesn't imply that I'm in the right, it only implies that I'm not acting as childish as someone else.

But hey, let's actually go there. That's why you called everyone "crybabies" right? Because assuming you're more mature than other people is so immature, right?

Right?

I’ve never been a fan of the “Be Nice” rule. It’s a crock of shit and should really be removed. This is news to no one.

Neither have I, but your arguments should be founded based on logic and what is best for everyone, not what serves yourself – especially when you're in a position of power. It's not a matter of you being nice – but rather being fair.

Its literally everyone vs. Bob at this point, and he refuses to concede

The thing is, without a "Be Nice" rule, I fear that we would devolve into naught but petty insults and accomplish nothing. Even with it in place there is an alarming amount of hostility between some of the users, and insulting people further would only serve to exacerbate the issue. People are far more willing to listen when you treat them with some respect, I feel. There is no need for name-calling and mud-slinging here.

Well I'm honestly I'm pretty disappointed with you myself, but I don't feel the need to go flinging insults at you, funny how that works. And while we're at it "My rules were never to be nice.", that's fine, but that doesn't change the site rules, of which you are still breaking, so quit it.

Now this is the end of that, the topic is over, Arcanine apologised, This discussion is over, do not carry it on